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Talk:Human Vocaloids
This Talk page was moved to the Forums for archive purposes. Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU I would like to put into question the valididity of the Vocaloids Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU, all added by the user Sneko. Using the guidlines at the top of page the vocaloids have the following problems: 1. Avoid adding new character entries that you yourself have created, conceptualized or produced. Doing so may constitute a Conflict of Interest and may be removed. Baring KEiKU, the vocaloids are the oringal concept of the user and her sister. This obviously leads to questions about wether the infomation is accurate or has no factual base. I have looked into the various links provided and have found no pictures or text hinting at any of the descriptions of the vocaloids provided. It must be fair to assume the descriptions of these vocaloids were simply created for this page alone. 2. Characters to be added must be established, meaning it is not just a mere idea. An established character has a number of existing works to their name. If existing works are not available, it must at least have a concept art, or a pledge by the author to produce so in the future. Using links provided and searches on Youtube and Nicovideo,Ai Katone has a total of 3 songs (2 of which are duets), Yori Hadene has 2 songs (1 of which is also a duet with the former) and KEiKU has 3 songs (1 of which is a duet with Ai Katone). All of Yori Hadene's and KEiKU's songs have been made within the last month so they will not have had time to become established within the fan community. Ai Kotone has had his songs on release for about 2 months yet has less than 500 combined views overall for his videos. These Vocaloids are clearly not established yet. 3. Sources must be provided to further prove their concepts, like links to homepages, features, and such. The only sources provided are links to youtube accounts or playlists. I have attempted to find other works and 3rd party sources for the vocaloids on Nicovideo, Youtube, popular search engines etc. and have found nothing at all. I'd also question the fact why the authors own youtube accounts are linked. The links to the vocaloids songs lead there anyhow, wouldn't the better option be to put down the creators name and leave it at that? The message coming across now is that these vocaloids are here to increase the authors popularity. Other issues: KEiKU's name should be brought into question. It is clearly Japanese yet she does not have any Japanese Kanji or Kana to back this up. A Japanese based vocaloid with a Japanese name must be accompanied by Japanese characters to appear on this Wiki. The use of capital latters is also in question. It makes the character look childish and slapped together just for a bit of fun. I'm not sure a name such as this should be used in the Wiki, considerng all other vocaloids use traditonal English capitlisation for their English translated names. Regarding Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU Firstly, Kotone Ai, although created and added by me, was later taken down after the rules were posted on the page. However, someone else put him up after this. I did however, put up Yori and KEiKU who, according to the rules, shouldn't be taken down. One, Yori belongs to someone else as stated in his description, who I've neither conceptualized nor own. Along with this, you have no evidence that me and the creator of Yori are related, and drew a false assumption. You also made a false assumption in saying that their descriptions were "created for this page alone", when all characters already had a pre-existing description in either their own channel pages or the creator's page. Rule number two states that the character has to be "established" not "established within the fan community". " es·tab·lish (-stblsh) tr.v. es·tab·lished, es·tab·lish·ing, es·tab·lish·es 1. To set up; found. " This is the first definition of established quoted from a dictionary. There was also no mention that the character had to have more than 500 views, had to have a certain number of songs, nor that it had to be popular amongst the fanbase. And, if you were to base yourself off of those standards, there were multiple videos posted by accounts outside of the provided, for example, song previews as well as the duets, that with the singles, total to more than 500 views, anyway. In regards to rule number 3, links of reference were provided. There was no mention that they had to be available on NicoVideo or anything of the sort. Usernames are placed within videos to credit the original authors, and for nothing more. If anything, it's not to create more popularity for the singers, but vise-versa. Also, all characters have character images in the videos themselves. The creator links were placed there for reference use only. KEiKU's lacks a Japanese translation to her name because she's wasn't created in Japan. If you had bothered to read any of the description on the creator's page given as a reference, you would understand that KEiKU is American-made and able to sing in Japanese. Saying that the use of capitalization sounds "childish" sound more like a personal issue, seeing as how KAITO and MEIKO, who are official Vocaloids, do not have a Katakana, Hiragana, or Kanji spellings to their names. I found your argument unfair. I don't believe something should be taken down based on false assumptions, and personal opinions. Sneko 21:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC) :In regards to the fact that Yori was created by someone other than yourself, the statement is misleading. She was created by your sister (as she states you are her sister on her youtube channel, something which you claim i didn't read) and as such you have close, potentially infulential ties to one another. The legitimacy of your work must therefore be in doubt. See Conflict of Interest for more information. :If you want to play on words, i'll bite. You'll note that the word used is establish''ed'' and not establish. The first is the past tense, the second is the present tense. It means your vocaloid must already be fully cenceptualised and must be as near to a finished product as possible. I find that hard to beleive with only one or two songs and a similar amount of art to your vocaloids' names. Almost all vocaloids go through several iterations before ending up with a version that is considered complete. To put it into prespective, Neru Akita had hundreds of people working on her over the months before we finally arrived at the vocaloid we have today. :Let me put this example to you: If i were to create a quick drawing, hum a few notes into my mic and then slap them both together on youtube and call it a vocaloid then start demanding that it be listed alongside other fanmades for the soul reason of technically being a fanmade vocaloid, you'd think i'm crazy. There is no golden rule fanmades must adhere to in order to be entered into the Wiki, but they must at the very least have 3rd party sources. Proof that someone other than yourself is genuinly interested in your work. :As for KEiKO's name i'll quote (again off the site you claim i did not read) Origin: UNKNOWN ( America is Suspected ) Why would America be suspected if she has a Japanese name? The first thing you learn about someone is their name and it often tells you a lot about the persons nationality. Ming Lee, Hanz Werner, Abduhl Muhammed etc. When you think KEiKO you immediatly think Japan, and that isn't just me who thinks in this manner. Anyway, this is an issue for the original author to get her facts straightened out (and that doesn't mean changing their name/nationality, but providing more insight as to why she is named that way while also suspected of being American.) :I'll agree with you on the fact that the capitlization is mostly a personal opinion, but that doesn't mean others don't also share it. Again, a name says a lot about a person and the manner in which the name is capitlised may spell doom or boon for the vocaloid. Its not a reason to take the vocaloid down, hence why it wasn't listed with my 3 guidline points. It's feedback which as an author interested in improving your vocaloid you should be happy and willing to recieve, even if you don't agree with it. :You may also want to start arguing why your vocaloid(s) should be on this Wiki rather than simply countering my points. This is not a personal attack or justificaiotn. If you can provide a strong argument on why they should be kept and other users agree with that, there is no reason to not reinstate them. It is simply a matter of course we take when a vocaloids legitimacy comes into play. It is up to you to prove their legitimacy for this Wiki. Kaiseine 23:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC) Regarding the ongoing issue I, um, don't think I've ever met a person aside from yourself who considered a "Youtube family" to be real. But hey, whatever floats your boat. I was never arguing for the sake of keeping my Vocaloid up, nor the ones posted, rather I was arguing because of your unjust reasoning and false assumptions. And yes, you would be considered crazy. But you're wrong if you're implying that all that went into our Vocaloids was to "hum a few notes" and "create a quick drawing". It takes work to sing as a different person with a different voice style and a different gender. Not to mention all the work that goes into mixing --and often when things don't sound as intended-- rerecording. Drawings take me roughly 10 hours to complete. So you could at least be kind enough to acknowledge that this wasn't something merely "slapped together". And that's all I really wanted to say. I have nothing else to say seeing as how the other two aren't my creations. I gotta say, though. Wouldn't I be considered the third party if I'm putting up someone else's work? Wouldn't that make me someone else interested in a person's work? What about all of the people who go out of their way to leave nice comments on our vocaloids? Are they not considered 3rd party? Is a fansite or something relative really necessary? But enough of that. It's pointless to keep arguing as I'm sure you've made up your mind no matter what I and everyone else may think. Although, I did want to ask the following. Seeing as how Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU are not allowed to exist on the page, would I be wrong in creating a new page specially for WIP Human Vocaloids? Not just for the sake of my own character, but for anyone else on Youtube that might want a chance. Sneko 00:04, 22 June 2009 (UTC) :All right, this time I'll answer. :Unjust reasoning and false assumptions aren't based on rule interpretation, and I think Kaisene is trying to be as neutral as possible, because it won't be just you who will be questioned... in fact, there are other people who have been questioned as well. Kaisene is interrogating you in regards to the legitimacy and worthiness of your entries because there has been an influx of character entries that end up being abandoned, and end up polluting the wiki with cruft. Don't think you're being singled out-- anyone else doing the same thing is similarly questioned. :CoI still kicks in because you have a degree of affinity with the mentioned two, and has their influence, but that's just me. :WIP Human Vocaloids? Your entries should go to Vocaloid Wiki: Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids, if that's what you're talking about. O Herman 04:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC) Alright, but... Wouldn't it have made more sense to move the entries to the corresponding place instead of removing it? Anyways, I'm sorry for the trouble this might've caused. To be honest, I wasn't expecting such an ordeal. Sneko 04:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC) :Like with everything, we still listen to explanations before booting them there. O Herman 11:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC) May I say another opinion? Originally this "Human Vocaloid" article itself have a big problem. Those "Human Vocaloids" are mere fandub singers. The pictures of the characters are mere avatar of the singers. And the names of the characters are mere handle name of the singers. Those "Human Vocaloids" have nothing related to Vocaloid software at all basically. Their creator uses the words "Vocaloid" in selfishness, but they do not have objective grounds to be mentioned in Vocaloid Wiki. Saying honestly, I want to delete this page and all of the personal derived characters from this Wiki. I think the characters which does not use the Vocaloid software and the characters which is not shared by plural creators should not be mentioned in this Wiki. However, this is my personal opinion. My personal opinion must not be carried out immediately so that personal character must not be mentioned in this Wiki.--Ymiyass900 07:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC) :Unnotable as they are, fandub singers do exist and influence the Vocaloid scene in other ways. But another name to call them would be desirable since the only affinity they have with Vocaloid is that they are fandub singers of music utilized with Vocaloid. They should be called Uttate Mita, but last I checked, they don't use avatars that resembles a derived character. O Herman 11:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC) My input This is for you Vocaloid Wikia, for being so amazing. <3 :It still stands that the rules of the Wiki needs to be enforced, so it's tough if you do really want your work to get off the ground. The best venue to complain about that is always here in the talkpage, not in YouTube where you stand to get dissed just as bad. O Herman 06:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC) :You seem to think you are being specifically targeted here. That is not the case. Up until around a month ago there were sparse rules on vocaloid fanmades which were rarely, if ever enforced. Eventually the page was a complete mess. I'd say there were well over a hundred entries ranging from the officaly endorsed fanmades, right down to fanmades which were little more than drawings. So the community got together and we had a very long discussion on the whole thing (see Vocaloid_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal) and we eventually decided on the rules we have here today. Some people wanted tighter regulations, another wanted them relaxed. We eventually arrived at the concensus we have today. Several members have spent hours cleaning up the fanmades and 4 entirely new articles were created to make the section more streamlined. :We are also trying to get other parts of the site up and running still but unfortunatly we keep having to come back here and sort out problems here when we could be contributing elsewhere. Tell me, are you planning on being involved with other parts of this Wiki or are your fanmade entries the sole reason you are here? Please just allow us to get on with our work and don't cause a fuss when the rules are outlined. Its community concensus, not just a couple of stuck up snobs who think the wiki should run that way. Take it up with the Vocaloid_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal|community, don't start throwing insults. Kaiseine 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Regarding the section about Nico Nico Singer I do not intend to offend the writer of this section, however, I have to admit that this section is quite confusing to me. What you refer to as Nico Nico Singers are indeed real "human", not vocaloids or any other software. The youtube videos provided in the section were actually created by extracting the singing voice of each artist from his or her respective cover of the original song and paste the extracted vocals onto instrumental file to create a cover version that make listeners feel like those singers are actually singing together. Finally, the correct romanization of 歌ってみた　is "Utatte Mita" (lit.Tried singing it). People who sing and upload videos under this category are usually simply referred to as "singer". Utatte Mita is not a noun for calling these singers. ...To pass real human as Vocaloid, I personally feel that it is quite humiliating to both human singers and the Vocaloids. Well, Miku might be happy if you tell her she's singing like a real human, but I don't think any singer in Nico Nico douga would be too happy with "Hey! you're singing like a vocaloid!"... Vocaloids too have their unique charms that us human don't. Therefore, I would like to humbly request that this section be revised. :This has been a haunting issue. Some editors have been overrun by their IRL obligations, hence why they were not able to take action. I'd like to know something though; #If they are Nico singers and they have vocaloid avatars, are they still Nico singers or do we call them as something else? #Is there any possibility that these nico singers existed before vocaloid did? #If 1 proves that they are still called Nico singers, and 2 is true, then we have a reason to abolish the "Human Vocaloids" term. Otherwise, we need to come up with a new term for Nico singers with Vocaloid-like avatars. For the Vocaloid Wiki, we only cover Nico singers who regularly has something Vocaloid-related. O Herman 13:24, October 11, 2009 (UTC) ::I'm all with O Herman and Ymiyass900. The term "Human Vocaloid" has nothing to do with the real Vocaloids in its nature and brings confusion. I also think we don't need to mention NicoNico singers. This Wiki is built for Vocaloids, i.e., computer program and related items only.--Damesukekun 08:43, October 31, 2009 (UTC) : About 1, alot of Nico Nico singers simply change avatars depending on the song or the preference of the video maker. So if they sing something vocaloid related like the linked Black Rock Shooter Band Edition, they might decide to have all vocaloid avatars. Or if it's an anime opening, there might be a few that will get identified with characters from that anime (like the JOINT chorus will have Shana and Yuuji avatars). There are also some singers who are most often identified by certain character avatars, like Nayuta with Suzumiya Haruhi, J with Kaibaman/Soldat J, doM with hot-blooded shounen characters, etc. I'm not sure about 2, but most of these people don't have vocaloid avatars because they're trying to imitate vocaloids, it's just flavour or coincidence. At any rate, Nico Nico Chorus singers shouldn't be in this section. 08:33, January 16, 2010 (UTC) Come up with a Term - Names Hello, wanted to toss my hat into the ring on trying to name Human Vocaloid. I typed "Fanloid", "OCloid", and "HumanLoid" in Google, just to see if it was being used, and I was surprised to see that it was (though very little). Would you consider these as potential terms? Bunai82 07:07, November 30, 2009 (UTC) :Fanloid sounds good. How about the others, what do you think? OCloid is already reserved for original characters, and they mostly don't sing. O Herman 07:31, November 30, 2009 (UTC) :I use mostly Humanloid. I think that's the whole point - a human which have edited her/his voice to sound alike vocaloid's voice. Fanloid sounds nice... I think Human Vocaloids is good too, but I think it's a bit long... Kichikos 21:02, December 1, 2009 :@O Herman, ^_^;; I didn't see other suggestions, but just that one that translated as "tried to sing". Anyway. I see that even the Japanese vocaloid fans use "人力Vocaloid" (Human Vocaloid). But it still seems odd to use Vocaloid as a title, since that is referring to Yamaha software. Bunai82 09:30, December 4, 2009 (UTC) About changing Human Vocaloids names / informations I'll go straight to the point. I think it's rude to change Humanoid's names without permission of their creators. I got really mad when I noticed that my own humanoid's, Shion Utsuwa's name was changed into Rosa! You shouldn't change any information of other people humanoids or names of them without the permission of creator. I mean really. Creators have been trough hard job making their humanoids and they have all rigths - others don't. It's really kind if someone helps with layout-problems etc but changing the information without permission! I mean haven't you heard about copyrights?? Whatever, I hope this is NOT gonna happen EVER again... I'll keep watching for cases like this... Kichikos 21:00, December 1, 2009 :Where did this happened? You know, that's considered vandalism and merits warning/ban. Show us more details. O Herman 00:01, December 2, 2009 (UTC) ::It was anonymous User:94.1.206.74‏ and it happened December 1, 16:49. I noticed the change a few hours later and I changed information back to normal. Kichikos 17:15, December 2, 2009 :::Warned. The next time the bozo does it again will be his/her last. O Herman 15:28, December 2, 2009 (UTC) Ok, seriously What in the world is going on? Ayu Matsuo was deleted the SECOND time now, and whoever did it didn't really bother to put any reason up. I'm gonna put her back yet again, so if anyone has a problem with that, come and say NOW, and don't just randomly go deleting other peoples' humanoids! At least not without a good reason! I'm starting to get really pissed over here! TheBalticMermaid 16:51, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :I am not sure how this works, but I think you need to go to Purposed Vocaloids first, instead of just adding things to the page without some OK from the Admins on this wiki. Bunai82 04:35, December 25, 2009 (UTC) Komori Rem Wasn't she put in one time? Names suggestions I find the term Cyberloid to be appropriate for Human Vocaloids. From the word Cyborg, meaning a half human half machine. I think it fits, and wanted to just throw the idea out there ^_^ Humanoids That should be the name... if not, then just keep the current one :P Rr97khl 09:38, February 14, 2010 (UTC) About 唄音ユー and ジニ The names conflict with (or plagiarize) the Utauloid 唄音ウタ / デフォ子. Ameya/Ayame, the author or デフォ子 came first and he is putting the copyright of this name in place. http://utaneuta.utau-synth.com/project.html Many foreigneres who does not speak full Japanese often steal the existing names (I have seen many cases in the Utauloid trend), and this should be alearted. Damesukekun 22:19, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :This is something I'm not quite sure how to handle on the wikia, or more percifically get across somewhere. A little help describing full would help, I can even put a warning on the front page, UTAU and any other related thing about taking UTAU related stuff. Even its not the UTAU wikia, UTAU's history is very much linked to Vocaloid, so it wouldn't be too unacceptable to get some warnings around the wikia to alert unimformed readers. Being a anime fan I can sympathize with you over the disappointing representatives... I've been a fan for over a decade now and have seen pretty much every form of ugly thing the western fandoms of anything remotely Japanese can toss around. :However, from experience of a MAJOR picture stealing meltdown in one fandom I came across, I can see a lot of the disappointers not taking any notice. >_< One-Winged Hawk 22:52, June 9, 2010 (UTC) ::O Herman and I are building guidelines for UTAU wiki. General reminders, usage policy, rules and regulations, Japanese language and culture and naming. Do I copy these reminders for this wiki? I'll ask O Herman and he would give me an okay. Damesukekun 00:58, June 10, 2010 (UTC) :::Go for it! OR at least link to the UTAU page from here on the following pages: all the fanmades related articles, UTAU, Main page. If you want you can even red text the links to the page if it helps. One-Winged Hawk 05:46, June 10, 2010 (UTC) LOTS of grammar rephrasing Hagane Tsuki (はが音ツキ) That piece is very messed up and its grammar... just not so good I'm serious, should someone fix it? :YOU SHOULD NOT START ARTICLES ABOUT YOURSELF. This is a key wikipadia policy in the first place. Just applying this guideline strictly will clear off many messer-ups. Damesukekun 01:17, June 10, 2010 (UTC) : :oh sorry, that was my signature. How do I make it less noticeable anyway? about myself...? ::If you've signs up and not an anon anymore, check your user settings under "more" (top right). However, signed up users will havea main page where you can talk about yourself all you want. That is where you put your information. One-Winged Hawk 05:48, June 10, 2010 (UTC) So Is this about vocaloids designed by humans? Humanoid confuses me since the established corporate ones have humanoid appearances too. Ty 17:12, December 27, 2010 (UTC) :The page in general needs work. Human Vocaloids are people who cover vocaloid songs but instead of seeing their faces or know their real names, they use an OC. Basically a mascot of themselves. Sometimes fans actually build a look for them, but that seems to be rare. The thing that makes a Human Vocaloid is the voice, it requires the singer to alter their vocals with a program, so it sounds more autotuned and synthesized. -- Bunai82 (talk) 19:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC) About removed Human Vocaloids Removed: Yuu Honne / Ren Enjine / Ai Kotone / KEiKU / Shion Utsuwa / Ayu Matsuo / Utane Jini / Utane Yu / Kevin Le / Tsuki Hagane / Choir Yuukine / Emiri Kurosu Reasons: *Random Users and IP additions to plug themselves or friends *Lack of clear information on Singer / lack of established presence and fanbase *Singer has no recent works / no uploads *Singers uploads had little to do with Vocaloid or Utau music *Singer made no attempt to tune vocals to sound like Vocaloid or Utau *Singer is tone deaf a number of them were just painfully offkey Currently Kept: Sai Tonarine / Niku Shuune / Mako Solane (exception) Reasons: *Well known and established *Clear information on Singer *Singer has a list of covers *Singer has largely sung Vocaloid or Utau music *Singer tunes vocals to sound like Vocaloid or Utau *Singer has decent vocals *The exception on Mako, she may be removed even though there is much information on her. But I don't see an indication of her vocal display in any form. Cu6ic Cu6ic is a group of 6 characters created by utattemita (meaning "tried to sing") singers from six different companies that were presented as "the Cu6ic vocal series". They are not Vocaloids, but are loosely based on the concepts of Vocaloid and presented as "vocaloids" ( they are classified as Human Vocaloids) and use technology to create their results. Their name "Cu6ic" is play on "cubic" (meaning "cube", a 6 sided shape). Cu6ic was a secret project that was revealed on NicoNicoDouga. The project was finally revealed in early 2011, with an announcement of two CDs. *Hayaine Soma *Shiroi Kuro *A-M-U *Jonyh *Yamano Reji *Riseh *offical website ---- I was going to create a page on them, but I wasn't sure so I've noted them here for someone else to decide on what to do with this group. [[User:Angel Emfrbl|One-Winged Hawk] 22:31, April 24, 2011 (UTC) :Just add them to the page if that is the purpose of their group. Though I am unsure what they sound like or even how far they are known. -- Bunai82 (talk) 04:17, April 25, 2011 (UTC) ::Hmmm... Might be best to leave them for a while. One-Winged Hawk 06:52, April 25, 2011 (UTC) Cycloids? Would the Cycloids (of Syncyclophone) belong here or Original Vocaloids? Basic Summary: Syncyclophone is a group of singers that do English versions of Vocaloid songs. Each of the singers has an original character rather than themselves, and a developed personality, design, etc. So would the Cycloids belong here, Original Vocaloids, or not anywhere? If you want to know more about the Cycloids you can find them on dA if you need to learn more. 23:26, August 14, 2011 (UTC) :We are currently not accepting new fanmades of anything, because it is unorganized. I plan to revamp and remove much of the characters on the originals due to them being added spontaneously by previous editors without much thought to how it would be. Please just keep Cycloids to proposed or on their own dA club. :It would actually make sense to just start a wiki for them, as you would be able to customize and put things how you want. -- Bunai82 (talk) 03:26, August 15, 2011 (UTC)